Catalyst N° 078 of 125 18 Sep 2025
Is now the time for DERs to scale?
with Andy Lubershane, partner and head of research, Energy Impact Partners
In this note
The question
Distributed energy resources were hyped a decade ago and mostly did not happen. Is this time actually different?
The answer
Lubershane says yes, but his confidence is asymmetric and he says so. Of the two reasons distributed energy resources failed to scale in the 2010s, one has completely reversed: the grid did not need them then and now urgently does. The other, cost, is only starting to move. He is explicit that his optimism is a bet that the need is now great enough to overpower the regulatory and programmatic friction, not a claim that the friction has gone away.
03The argument
The first reason it failed, and Lubershane counts himself among the people who got it wrong, is that the grid simply did not need these resources. His evidence is an occasion in 2017 when he gathered a group of utility people, many of them distribution engineers and several specifically tasked with considering distributed resources, and asked where on their systems they were finding non-wires alternatives. The answer was that they were not: one or two outliers, nothing systematic, and he came away convinced they were looking in good faith. The underlying reason was 15 to 20 years with very little load growth until very recently, which meant few places under pressure, upgrades that were not especially expensive when they were needed, and capacity markets with plenty of supply. Kann’s framing is that distributed resources were a vitamin rather than a painkiller, and Lubershane extends it usefully: a vitamin that was not fully approved, because a distributed resource does not deliver the same product as a wires upgrade. Build out the substation and you have capacity in that neighborhood every hour of the year. Add storage instead and you have a dispatchable resource with a limited amount of energy in it, which means the planner has to be sure how many hours a day and how many days a year the capacity is needed, and sure the battery will never be called, drained and called again before it can recharge.
The second reason was cost, and the interesting part is which half of the cost prediction came true. The optimists were right that hardware would get dramatically cheaper: lithium-ion cells and packs on the back of the electric vehicle industry, solar panels, and the cost of making any device connected and controllable over the internet. What they missed is that the soft costs would barely move. Customer acquisition stayed stubborn, and so did installation, because shrinking a large battery system into a box wired into a home’s breaker panel with all the required safety equipment takes skilled labor on site. So the installed price of a residential battery stayed high through a decade in which cell prices collapsed. Lubershane dates the first real movement in installed system cost to roughly the last two to three years.
What has changed is the need, unambiguously. He is confident that the same engineers convened today would name plenty of hotspots where load growth is about to make a feeder very expensive to upgrade. The cost question he leaves open, and his hope is a reinforcing loop rather than a technology trend: need drives utilities to run real procurement programs, programs create volume, volume drives installed costs down. Two things make him think the loop has started. Virtual power plants of genuinely useful size, hundreds of megawatts, are now being dispatched. And a chart from the chief executive of a large demand response aggregator, showing how many times a year its resources were actually called rather than merely enrolled, has climbed steeply in the last two years. He reads that as evidence of need and, as much, of grid operators growing comfortable using resources they used to treat as theoretical.
The strongest objection comes from the host, and Lubershane concedes most of it. Kann says he is not worried about cost, because cost is comparative and every alternative is getting more expensive, from gas turbines to the retail electricity rate that a customer-sited resource is measured against. His worry is that in electricity, “needed” has repeatedly failed to mean “happens.” Change runs through state-level regulation and utility programs that arrive late, or arrive small, or arrive with rules nobody can meet, and hundreds of megawatts of virtual power plants is very little against a problem measured in gigawatts. The whole thesis rests on whether that inflects within two or three years. Lubershane’s answer is not a rebuttal. He names his own bias, an economist’s habit of assuming that systems make rational decisions, and restates his position as a bet that the economic fundamentals finally win out against the friction. He then scopes the forecast down himself: not every utility running a gigawatt program, but every major utility plausibly running a several-hundred-megawatt program within five years, with gigawatt-plus scale in the more mature and more constrained markets. And he adds the limit the title invites you to forget. This does not replace the gas plants now being built and does not remove the need for the other resources. It makes a dent.
04What you need to know first
- Distributed energy resource
- Any energy asset sitting on the customer’s side of the grid rather than at a power plant: a battery in a garage, a smart thermostat, rooftop solar, an electric vehicle charger, a backup generator at a factory.
- Non-wires alternative
- Using those resources to avoid or defer a physical grid upgrade, so that flexibility on a feeder substitutes for a bigger substation. This is the specific promise that failed to materialize in the 2010s.
- Demand response and virtual power plant
- Demand response is an agreement under which a customer’s equipment is turned down when a grid operator calls. A virtual power plant is an aggregation of resources offering push-button control to the operator. Lubershane is clear there are no strict definitions; the connotation is that virtual power plants are aggregations of many smaller assets, often including batteries, but a large demand response program is one in substance.
- Soft costs
- Everything in a project that is not the hardware: customer acquisition, sales, permitting, installation labor. The variable that decided whether the last decade’s hardware price collapse reached the customer.
05Details worth keeping
- The taxonomy that organizes the episode divides distributed resources by whether they give an operator an on-off button. Energy efficiency and distributed solar do not, which does not make them low value; Lubershane is emphatic they belong in integrated resource plans. It makes them resources for grid planners rather than grid operators, because they offer a predictable profile but no real-time control.
- Of the dispatchable kinds, a distributed gas generator is closest to a perfect resource from an operator’s point of view, ramping fast and running as long as needed, effectively a central power plant that happens to sit at the edge of the grid. The caveats are that it depends on a gas connection and that the clean, low-emission versions are the ones not constrained by air permits.
- Every dispatchable class is limited in a different way. Flexible loads are limited by customer tolerance, which is why operators have historically been reluctant to push the demand response button at all. Batteries are limited by duration but can be called often through the year. Even gas generators are not run indefinitely.
- Batteries have a quiet advantage in customer experience. Once self-consumption of solar and a reserve for backup are respected, a customer generally does not notice or care what the remaining capacity is doing, which makes regular dispatch far less intrusive than switching off someone’s equipment.
- The route to growing demand response is not more enrollment alone but more automation and smarter dispatch, so resources can be called more often with less disruption to the customer. The worked example is squeezing megawatts out of an industrial site by looking at the whole facility rather than one piece of equipment.
- The bull case turns on program timing rather than deployment speed. Physical deployment is fast, which is one of the category’s real advantages, and hundreds of megawatts can be installed quickly relative to large-scale alternatives. It is utility procurement, program design and inclusion in an integrated resource plan that take years, which is why Lubershane says utilities need to start now to have anything meaningful in five years.
- The specific bear-case risks he names are battery supply chain disruption, foreign entity of concern restrictions on investment tax credit eligibility, fire code (raised by Kann; Lubershane is less worried, saying it has not been a problem for residential batteries but has been in large commercial buildings and dense cities), and installed battery system costs failing to fall.
06Claims worth citing
All figures as stated on 2025-09-18 and attributed to the speaker. Deployment figures and program counts in this space move quickly.
- Virtual power plants in the hundreds of megawatts are now being dispatched and making a real difference on the grid in some places. Lubershane; Kann accepts the figure while arguing it is tiny relative to the problem.
- A demand response figure the transcript renders as “around 2025 gigawatts,” almost certainly a garbled “20 to 25 gigawatts.” What it counts is ambiguous: the sentence sits between a remark about today’s demand response and one about latent potential, so it could be either. Doubling it is called completely doable. Treat both the number and its base as unresolved. Lubershane
- Demand response nationally has been flat to slightly declining over the past decade. Lubershane
- A chart posted by Dana Guernsey, chief executive of a large demand response aggregator (the company name is rendered in the transcript as “Volti”), showing actual dispatch counts per year for that company’s resources, escalating over the last two years and appearing to go exponential in 2025. Described from memory, not quantified on air. Guernsey chart, cited by Lubershane
- Little load growth in the power system over the past 15 to 20 years, until very recently. Lubershane
- Forecast: every major United States utility could plausibly have a several-hundred-megawatt distributed energy resource program within five years, with gigawatt-plus programs in the more mature or more constrained markets. Posed as a question and answered with “that seems reasonable to me,” and explicitly not offered as confidence. Lubershane
- In a three to five year window he is more optimistic about expanding demand response than about batteries, while describing his long-term view on batteries in homes, businesses and vehicles as about as bullish as it gets. Lubershane
- Installed residential battery system costs stayed stubborn through the decade of falling cell prices and only began to move in roughly the past two to three years. Lubershane
- A typical demand response enrollment might commit a customer to something like ten events a year of up to eight hours, given as an illustration rather than a market average. Lubershane
- Battery cells will likely keep coming from China for a while longer if installed systems are to be cost effective. Lubershane
07Where it’s contested
- The central disagreement is about pace, not direction. Kann agrees with the thesis and still presses the historical pattern: technologies in electricity have repeatedly hit a wall not because they were worse but because change has to move through state regulators and utility program design, and arrives late, small or unusable. He scopes that worry himself, exempting the ERCOT market, where he says things simply happen, and confining it to regulated territories where a change has to be made and then propagate jurisdiction by jurisdiction. He also allows that a tipping point is imaginable, and Lubershane agrees.
- Cost is explicitly unresolved. He says it is still an open question how far the cost of deploying various classes of distributed resources can fall, and his mechanism for it falling is a hoped-for feedback loop rather than an observed trend.
- The headline question invites a bigger claim than he makes. Lubershane says directly that this does not replace the gas plants being built and does not remove the need for other capacity; the claim is that distributed resources make a meaningful dent over the next five years. Any use of this episode should carry that limit.
- Vocabulary is soft and he flags it. He notes there are no strict definitions separating demand response from virtual power plants and that he uses the terms loosely himself, which matters when comparing capacity numbers from different sources.
- The bear case is thin by construction. Asked what goes wrong, his first answer is “the opposite of what I just said,” and the substantive risks arrive only on a second prompt. The list that follows is real but was not volunteered.
- The last risk is also the most structural. Utility planners prefer a solution that works one hundred percent of the time, and nobody is ever criticized for building one. Accepting a duration-limited resource requires planning far more carefully for the specific problem it solves rather than for every problem that might arise, and Lubershane says candidly that he understands why that is not the default and that utilities have not been incentivized to make the shift. The transcript garbles this passage; the sense is clear from context but the exact wording is not.
- Both speakers are invested in the answer. The guest is the host’s partner, the episode is built on the guest’s own published argument, and the only real challenge in the conversation comes from the host.